Wikipedia vaten:Varyantê Zazaki/Fonetikê Zazaki

"mereno"

the variant "mereno" is really using by many central zazas, look to this article:

http://ku.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rencber_Ezîz_(Zazakî)

Ezîz, 31.07.1988 de, bajarî Almanya Bremen de xo yew bînaya berz ra erzeno war û bi no hewa mereno

and this:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Destan%C3%AA_G%C4%B1lgam%C4%B1%C5%9Fi&oldid=679

Engîdû benû nêweş (niweş) û merenû.(Tablet 7) Gılgamış embazî xo rî zaf bermenû û lorîyan kenû. Mergî Engîdûyî ra pey tersî mergî kewnû ey zerre û merg ra remenû. Vanû: "Ez bi xo zî merena...

So, its the variant "mereno" exist, its should be standard, we should not make exceptions, because north zazas dont know this variant. "mereno" is older, avesta show this, look to chapter "e", i added it. "mır-" is only kurdish influence. --Dersimıc 21:38, 24 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

Good catch. --Xosere 04:49, 25 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

ç, k, p, t / çh, kh, ph, th

varyantê çekuye	çekuya standarde	eslê çekuye	problem:
khan	kıhun	Farski: kuhna (Beloçki:kwahn)	we need example of middle or old iranain
khoçıke	Kaçıke	Tirki: kaşı-	do the variant Kaçıke really exist? until this time i heard always khoçıke or koçıke
phanc	panc	Ewısta: pança	asmen sayd that the most use "phanc" without aspiration
thamare	tamar	Mogolki: tamır	asmen moved now thamare to damare, what now? should we use thamare or damare?
thembur	tambur	Farski: tanbūr	i heard until this time only the variant thembur or tembur, anyway the persian "a" maens in zazaki "e", so is the most original "tembur" or "thembur"

Panc:In most Bingol/Palu dialects it is "punc" (look: Harun Turgut dictionary.) In southern Zazaki, its also with "p". In Koyo Berz dictionary, it is "panc" and "panj". So obviously most people use "p" variant as opposed to "ph". This is not important anyway. We look at what is most original. Obviously its panc.

koçıke: I think it should be koçıke. In Palu/Bingol, it is kueçık. "o" usualy turns to "ue".

damare: I think it should be damare. It comes to Zazaki from Turkish damar. In Bingol dialect it is Domar or Dumar.

tembur: Tembur looks okay.

kıhun: yes we need historical examples. But we are sure that historical example is not khun. In Kurdish its "kevn" or "kevne". --Xosere 18:01, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

ok thank you for the informations bira. --Dersimıc 18:03, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Panc is moved to Fonetike Standardi page. Damare and koçıke is moved to Standardization of Foreign words. Xosere 18:09, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

very very good, thanks. please add also the navigation as template and the bivenen chapter to the "p"-site. thanks. --Dersimıc 18:10, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

It seems like Tembur is a foreigh word. May be from Kurdish or Turkish. In Persian and Arabic it is tanbur. But in Turkish it is Tambur. In Kurdish it is Tembur. Links:

Xosere 18:29, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Hi, good research. Yes there are also words from other iranic languaes in zazaki. But i dont see this as loanword. Also turkish has many words from other turkic languages, nobody declare them to "loaned". And anyway we have not an own word for "tembur".

We have also not an own word for "rose", "gul" is also a loaned word. But I think, we dont should put iranian-loanwords, where we have not own words, to the "foreign"-list. Things like "rojhilat" > rocvetış are good, to kill the kurdish influence.

But our people be confuse if we put things like "gul", "tembur" and other hundreds of words to the foreign-list, where zazaki have not own words. --Dersimıc 18:47, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Another problem is that nobody knows the origin of the word. Is it Arabic or is it Persian?--Xosere 18:51, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Yes, its the same problem with "zeman" (time). --Dersimıc 18:52, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

the word for "and" in zazaki

In the german Wikipedia stands, what this was in Old Persian "utā" and Middle Persian "ud", is this right?

pele vs. perre

what is the most original variant for "site"? i ask, because i see that asmen does favor now "perre". are there historic examples that northern zazas can adopt it? does this come from avesta "per-" for "wing"? --Dêsımıc 13:17, 19 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

evidence for deştiş/derz

avestan: darez
pathian: drz / 'dyş
khotaneze: darş
sivendi: serz/dişt

All from Cheung p.63

evidence for gan

avestan: viianaya (soul)
parthian: gy'in (soul)
middle persian: gy'n, gyan
persian: can
kurdish: giyan
sivendi: gan
from PIE:*ane- (Latin anima, animal...)
sankrit: an (breathe)

from Cheung p.161

evidence for gaz

middle persian: gc-, gaz
Parthian: gşt
persian: gazidan/gaz
kurdish gazin/gaz
sivendi: gaz
pashtun: agzai
no PIE root

from Cheung 118

evidence for werzen-

gilaki: virişten/viriz

from Cheung p.311

evidence for bırnayis

avestan: bri
middle persian: bryn-, blyn
parthian: bryn
hewrami: bir
semnani:brin
from PIE: bhrei- (russian: brit "shave" ...)
sanskrit: bhri

from cheung p.23

Mewzu ake